086 Niko Whitefeather: Founder of UNIUN Retreats

In this conversation, Cam and Niko Whitefeather discuss their experiences with psychedelics and holding space for others during journeys. Niko shares his journey of becoming a spaceholder and his first experiences with psychedelics. They discuss the therapeutic value and spiritual experiences of mushrooms and ayahuasca. Niko explains the difference between the two and advises people to follow their heart when choosing which medicine to work with. The conversation explores the differences between Ayahuasca and other psychedelics, the creation of Union, the blending of the mystical and therapeutic, the importance of love in spiritual experiences, the interconnectedness of all beings, and the personal struggles and growth in the journey of healing.

Niko's info:
Website: https://www.uniunretreats.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/uniun_retreats/

This Episode is Sponsored by Elevate. Led by Jonathan Schecter, a seasoned specialist (and two-time podcast guest) in breathwork and integrative practices, Elevate is an 8-session program designed for those committed to personal growth and consciousness expansion through breathwork and coaching. Participants will gain a deep understanding of how to align breathwork with their goals, use breathwork to support their psychedelic and plant medicine work, enter psychedelic states with just breathing, and acquire a comprehensive toolkit for integration and meditation.

Go to http://bluemagicelevate.com/elevate and mention TRIPSITTING during your call with Jonathan or at checkout to receive $100 off the current price of $997.

If you are interested in sponsoring an episode of The TripSitting Podcast, send an email to tripsittingblog@gmail.com

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Transcript

What is up everybody? Welcome to the TripSitting podcast. This episode is sponsored by Elevate. Elevate is led by Jonathan Schecter, who is a friend of mine and a two time former podcast guest. And he's a seasoned specialist in breathwork and integrative practices. Elevate is an eight session program designed for those committed to personal growth and consciousness expansion through breathwork and coaching.

Participants will gain a deep understanding of how to align breathwork with their goals, use breathwork to support their psychedelic and plant medicine work, enter psychedelic states with just breathing, and acquire a comprehensive toolkit for integration and meditation. If you're interested, go to bluemagicelevate .com slash elevate. And if you schedule an intro call with Jonathan, mention Tripp sitting during the call to receive $100 off of the current price of 997.

or if you feel ready to sign up, put in the code TRIPSITTING when you're checking out and you will receive that $100 discount. Today's guest is an amazing medicine man who has certainly devoted his life to being in service of others through the use of plant medicines, be it ayahuasca or the sacred mushroom. He is the founder of Union Retreats.

and they are a company that hosts retreats across the United States using psilocybin. They actually have an upcoming retreat in Crestone, Colorado in October, so definitely be sure to check them out if you were interested. I had a really fun time having this conversation with him and learning more about his life, how he got into his work, and just how he shows up to being of service and taking people through these.

Really incredible journeys. So I know that you'll definitely enjoy this episode with my guest today, Niko Whitefeather.

How long have you been holding space now in that capacity for people specifically, I'll ask specifically to Journey and then we can go in other space holding capacities. Yeah, you know, I get asked that a lot. That's an interesting question because it's not like a job that you have a day that you start. It's like I've been holding space since I was a kid really. I mean, can get into that later, but people will just randomly come up to me and start pouring.

everything out from a young age, but I'd say for journeys it was also a gradual process. Roughly 10 years and then full time, know, where it's like this is like what I do for people about three years, but it's been a gradual process beginning with family and friends and also randomly, you know, finding myself in situations, let's say at a rave where someone's losing their shit and I happen to be there, you know, I've had a way of, you know, putting me in those situations over.

before I finally said yes to it. Yeah. Was your first experiences with psychedelics at like raves and festivals and sort of around that scene? More or less. My first experience with psychedelics was actually with mushrooms that I grew. I was probably, what, 15 years old and I grew them in my closet while I was still living at my parents' house.

That was my first psychedelic experience. And shortly after that, I found my way into the rape scene, experimented in many ways. Yeah, but mushrooms was your first go around with it? That's right, yep. Yeah. Where did that lead you to?

You know, at that point in my life, I had no real intention for healing. I was really just interested. I was curious. I wanted to trip. I wanted to have a journey. And when I took the mushrooms, I took them like I took everything else at that time in my life. And that was kind of recklessly in excess. And I ate a large dose of mushrooms and, you know, basically laid in the fetal position for five, six hours, just horrified.

But that resulted in me coming out with my first real prayer in this life. And that was, I want to be a good thing. Up until that point, I didn't feel like a good thing. And I was kind tossed into my shadow for so long that I came out just so sincerely reaching for the light for the first time in my life. And that's catalyzed a huge... I mean, I'm here. That brought me here. There's a lot that happened, but essentially that was the beginning.

the real like, want it, give it to me, let's go. Damn, so like after that, did you start researching into what you just experienced or did it take a while for you to actually have the framework for what happened? I did, I jumped right in. mean, well, the first thing I did is like, wanted, I was like fascinated. I wanted to like grow plants, read books and care for things for the first time in my life. So I started to do that.

I literally started Googling how to be a hippie. I had no idea what I was doing. Until that point, at a young age, I was in drugs and selling drugs and breaking into houses. I was like, how do you be a hippie? Where did you grow up? I grew up in Vancouver, Washington. I born in New Jersey and moved to the West Coast when I was about three years old.

And I was raised in Portland, Gresham, Vancouver. Gotcha. Was your family close? Did you feel close with them or did you feel detached? I felt pretty detached. I was born in Jersey City, like I said, and then my mom and I left to my biological father, came over to the West Coast, and then she married another man who adopted me as his son, which is awesome. And it's like he wasn't my biological father.

I was adopted into an all -white family and just felt very disconnected, both from the family and from my roots and who I was. So it really kind created somewhat of an identity crisis very early on, which began a lot of behaviors, coping, eventually brought me to a place of transforming all of that material. But it was not easy. It required some fire.

As it usually does. As it must, yeah. Yeah, you know, I've never heard any stories of people that go on this healing journey that didn't have some sort of catalyst beforehand that brought them into usually the complete opposite place. Like a lot of people get dragged down to, you know, the theoretical kind of rock bottom almost before they're like, shit, like I'm.

I need to turn this around or else this is going to end soon. Absolutely. You know, we don't necessarily want it to end so soon. So you're 15 years old during that first mushroom experience, right? Yeah, around there. 15, 16. Gotcha. So then how soon afterwards did you have your next mushroom experience? Probably not.

too far after that. It escalated pretty quickly from there into LSD and then before you know it, was doing these things quite a lot, mostly at parties and raves. And eventually I began to open my eyes to the therapeutic value I was receiving and the spiritual experiences I was having. I had always deeply craved that connection, even though I was living kind of a wild life. mean, under that, was craving this intimacy with

to be on with the divine. didn't have the words for that, but I learned that that's what I was looking for soon enough. And then I began to just take mushrooms every weekend by myself. I would eat large doses of mushrooms, turn off all the lights, lay down, and I would call that church. And I did that every weekend for years, almost every weekend. But I went really deep. So it quickly shifted and started to become more intentional.

Yeah. So when did that then shift into you, I guess, talking about that with others and being there as that like spaceholder and being able to actually feel comfortable, like educating others on these experiences that you've obviously had? I did that for years. know, I did that just kind of self exploration for a long time and continued to live kind of a wild life and doing a lot of drugs and, know,

making my money by selling drugs and yeah, got into a really rough place. Eventually I was in an illegal trouble and treatment, you know, centers, rehabs, and I got out of treatment. Let's see, I must have been 19 or so. And I just had this impending sense of doom, know, something in me was like, you're gonna die if you stay here.

And I was like kind of almost okay with that. You I wasn't actively suicidal or anything, but I was definitely like, okay, this is what life is. I really am not that interested in continuing. Like if there was like a fast forward button or a way that I just could not do this, I'd be into it. So before I totally gave up on life, I just decided to go as far away as I possibly could. I took my $1 when I was 20 years old and I bought a one -way ticket to Ecuador.

Literally because that was as far away as I could get. I didn't know about Ayahuasca at that point. This was in 2011, I think it was. I began to work on coffee farms and chocolate farms and trade work for places to stay. I didn't know Spanish. literally just went hitchhiked, bussed, all the way down to Peru. I encountered Ayahuasca for my first time down there. That's really...

where it all started. That's where I really dove into this work intentionally. I drank ayahuasca for my first time in 2012, which then just kind of set me off on this huge journey. I traveled all around South America, Central America, I worked with many different medicines. Eventually I got sick, I needed to come home very reluctantly, came home and had just had this huge life -changing journey for almost a year traveling.

and i wanted to continue working with ayahuasca and i didn't know where to do that and so that's when i found the santo daini which is a legal ayahuasca church in the u .s. all over the u .s. and i was like okay these people are crazy this seems like a cult but i need to drink this drink so i'm going to go do this and i'm going to be like you know they can do their weird christian stuff and that's not how worked at all i went in and fell deeply in love with that doctor

tradition. And so I've been very involved with that for about 10 years. I hold a role in that church called Head Guardian, which basically means I'm kind of like a first responder. You know, when people go through the really intense passages, it's me and the other guardians who are there assisting them through that process. So a lot of my training and experience comes from doing that for about 10 years with people from all walks of life, among other things. But I'd say that's that was like my main, what, yeah.

container for the development for me to like step into that space of actually holding the space for other people. And then like I said, kind of gradually from that space, was friends and family and eventually came to quit my job and do it full time. Yeah. So I'm curious as someone who's obviously, you know, now works a lot with psilocybin and obviously has a long history of ayahuasca. What do you tell people?

if somebody comes to you and asks, like, hey, I can't decide if I wanna work with mushrooms or if I wanna work with ayahuasca, like, what is the difference between them? Like, what should I know when I'm trying to make that decision? Yeah, I often tell people, this is my opinion, it's like they do the same thing in different ways. It's kind of like taking a different car to the same location.

we're sincere and paying attention, they can help us open and come into our hearts more fully and live from that place. The difference, it's very similar, I guess, experientially. Similar, I mean, I've had really intense mushroom experiences that if you were to kind of like plot me into the middle of them, would be almost indistinguishable from Ayahuasca. I'd say one of the main differences really is the lineage and the container.

Like ayahuasca has all of these different traditions, years and years and years and years of all of these different traditions working with them. And depending on where you are, and drinking it, you're going to be experiencing that. But like there's a felt sense of kind of this holding of so many people and this firmness, right? And with the mushrooms, there's some traditions and they've been used for a long time, but there's not as many traditions still intact and still alive. And most of the time people are taking mushrooms by themselves or with someone who

is holding a ceremony not aligned with a specific tradition. So there's kind of this openness and fluidity to the mushrooms that is not exactly there in the same way with ayahuasca. Another big thing is accessibility. But mostly what I tell people is to really sit down and feel into it. You're going to feel called in your heart to the one that's right for you, that's going to feel good in your heart.

and go to that one, just pay attention and watch what opens for you. But I think that the main difference is really that the lineage, right? The prayers, the energy holding, containing those medicines. Yeah. So in the, you like, you really felt that difference when you first went to Ecuador and like first sat with Ayahuasca, like to you, it feel different from what you had already known from the mushrooms and the LSD? absolutely.

I mean, partially because of where I was in my life and also this huge kind of hero's journey just like leaving the comfort and familiarity of my life but also because I was like stepping into this culture in entirely different language. All of these prayers, the energies, the forces that they're calling in with these songs and with these prayers, you know, it's like there's the substance that has this effect and then there's a whole other thing which is like the energies that the, that the, that the, you know,

the curandero or whatever they're calling into that space as well. So I just thought about that, yeah. Do you think there's something to be said? I say this, think, because my personal opinion, I think that for ayahuasca, so I just experienced ayahuasca here in Colorado, and I've also experienced ayahuasca in Peru and in Costa Rica. In my opinion, I think there's something to be said too for the barrier to entry and for having to

actually like leave the place that you are comfortable with and go somewhere completely different for an experience like this. I think that that energy plays a little bit into the type of experience that you're gonna have. Like at least for me, but again, that was the first time I experienced ayahuasca in Peru. Like, you know, there's a very far away. I knew nothing. I had never experienced ayahuasca before, but like that to me felt so different. And the fact that I had to do so many things and prepare myself in order to get there,

I think just set me up to have such a powerful experience. Whereas if the very first time I did it was 40 minutes away, I'm not sure it would have been as powerful because it just would have been a smaller barrier to entry. Yeah, absolutely. I agree. I mean, to me, it's like you're taking all of these leaps of faith. What I hear you saying is like there's so much faith required to get to that point.

Peru or Costa Rica, where it's like your heart's already open. like, okay, let's go. I'm like in this versus, okay, I'll go drive to this place. you know, it's like, then the fate starts when the ceremony starts, you know, more or less. It's yeah, the process already starts, you know, when we're traveling to these far away places and don't really know how it's going to go. So for sure. Yeah. So what, what made you want to officially start?

Union and then also to maybe explain what Union is before you get into that Yeah, so Union is an organization that we just began And it's an organization that offers these five -day psycho spiritual retreats We're gonna start in Colorado and we have our first retreats in this context in October

You know, I'm here right outside Portland, Oregon. And Oregon is like, you know, kind of a center of this whole movement, right? We have the Solicite and Service Centers opening up and all sorts of things going on. And I've been doing this work for quite a while and I'm watching this whole kind of wave unfold. you know, I'm seeing a couple of things. I'm seeing a lot of churches open up, which is awesome.

I'm seeing the service centers open up, which is also awesome. But there's kind of this like fundamental like split between them that's being imposed by the government basically. The government is saying, you know, you are a sincerely held religious, you have a sincerely held religious belief if you ABC XYZ in this very specific way.

And then the service centers are trying to offer this blanket version of spirituality because they're catering to such a wide variety of people, which I get.

But both of those just haven't really been touching the core of this work for me. To me, it's like the mystical and the therapeutic has always been overlapped. They're like inseparable. If you have a truly mystical experience, it's deeply cathartic and deeply therapeutic. And if you are truly healing and transforming yourself through therapy, you're getting closer and closer to who you truly are, which to me is not my body, not my story.

not my experience, not my emotions, it's something deeper, right? We're getting closer to spirit. So to me, these worlds are always blended and they're inseparable. But what I see is this like very distinct separation happening. And then with like laws and rules in place to like keep them, right? The government's like, you're either a wellness center or a service center or you're a church with a religion. And it's just not, yeah, I don't see it that way. So it was almost out of a frustration with those options.

And you're like, no, we're gonna go somewhere where we can do this the way that we wanna do this with these psycho -spiritual retreats. We're gonna blend these worlds and really embrace that union of the mystical and the therapeutic. Yeah. Yeah, I think that as you begin to heal and dive deeper into yourself, spirituality just comes out of it naturally. I know for me, I've gone through

you know, growing up, I grew up Jewish. And then after I was like, don't think I really believe in this. And I was atheist and I was agnostic. like, like, I didn't really know what I believed was the thing. It was just that, like, I knew I didn't like the idea of organized structure in general. And that just turned me off from religion. And then also, I think it just turned me off from spirituality as a whole, because I saw the container that it was held in just felt so controlling to me. And then as I started, I mean, really, honestly, after

at my first experience with ayahuasca, I felt spirit was the thing. Like it wasn't, like I know it or I read it or something. Like I felt it to be true in such a way that like I didn't even feel the need to explain it. It was just, I know that this is here. And so now this is just how I'm going to act and how I'm gonna believe. And then that inspired me to then.

dive deeper into some of these other spiritual teachings, like, you know, getting a little bit more into Buddhism and learning about Hinduism and even yoga. So like all of those things and seeing the actual spiritual energy behind it all and realizing that I don't have to just pick one. I can believe in spirit the way that I want to believe in spirit and the way that makes sense to me. I think it's nice to have some of these frameworks for it, but like they're all right.

at the exact same time. And like, you can hold all of them to be true, but you know, what feels right for you. And as you continue to dive down the spiritual teachings, like it is healing. Like that is what is healing you because, you know, we are spiritual beings, like having this human experience. You know, we're not humans having the spiritual experience. Absolutely, absolutely. Great.

I talk to a lot of people who are navigating this and kind of opening their eyes for the first time or even hitting roadblocks like, whoa, I had this experience and I have no idea what to make of this. It's like totally outside anything I've ever experienced. all the time, I'm bringing people back to like, what's helpful? What's the helpful way?

for you to understand this? it from this lens of Buddhism or animism or these different ways of looking, but there's no right way. It's really what helps you be available to more fully giving and receiving love on the most basic level. And how awesome.

that there are so many lenses to view our experience through. And at some stages in our lives, one might be helpful and then there's another stage where another one might be helpful. So, yeah. It all comes back to love every single time. Like there's no experience that I've ever had with any psychedelic in which love has not at some point during it, like been something that I've had to just like sit in and feel and like believe in.

And like, that was what just made me so interested in, I think psychedelics towards the beginning of my years. Like when I was using it much more recreationally, was like, you know, I had, I was, I was a pretty closed off person. I didn't really understand what it meant to like unconditionally love anything. especially myself. And it still took a while for me to truly get that. But like, I remember just sitting and feeling so open and so good and realizing that.

there was so much more to like the little day -to -day things that I was struggling with and worrying about. that like, it's all going to be okay. Like I didn't again have the words for it at the time, but that was just love. Like I was just sitting there and just feeling genuine love and joy for life as a whole. And it's just so interesting how all of these substances and like all of these spiritual teachings, like not even like take plant medicine completely out of it.

All these spiritual teachings just come back to how do you love yourself fully and loving yourself fully that informs how you can then love others more fully. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's what I was saying earlier. You know, my view of these medicines and really all spiritual paths is that they help us come more fully into our hearts. You know, love being one of the aspects of the heart, know, humility, calm, compassion, faith, surrender to the mystery.

I believe these are our natural states. They help us come more fully into that. I always tell people also, like, that's what we're doing. The plant medicines are super helpful, but really we don't need them in order to come to this place. This is a real place that we can go to and view our lives through. It's really cool that the plant medicines help us open ourselves and drop the things that stand in the way of that.

you know, find ourselves naturally more in that place that talking about. Yeah. I see love as essentially this frequency that exists within the universe. And it's a frequency that's always there. And we always have the ability to like drop into that frequency if we want to. But we just get so easily distracted by everything that's happening around us that like we forget that it's there and like we forget that we always have access to that.

And we can always choose to align ourselves with that. Like it's never going anywhere. There's never any point in which we can't feel it, but like we have to make the conscious choice to try to exist as close to that frequency, like as, as, as we can. and we're not going to be perfect and we're not going to live there all the time. Like that would be, that would be insane. There's so many other things for us to do as human beings, but you know, it's, it's like a good anchor to always come back to. like, if you.

if you can feel that every single day, it's so much easier to then exist and like emanate out from there and realize that like everything that you do is just gonna be so much more aligned. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I believe that it's possible. I hope it's possible and I believe it's possible to fully live in our hearts all the time. I'm not there yet. And to me, that doesn't mean like constantly being like, like blissed out in love, you know?

There's many situations and many things you have to pass through that don't feel like love. And it's still possible to be in that place of the heart, which offers a lens of compassion. I can be in the middle of my suffering and not be all blissed out in love, but I can be in my heart and viewing it and holding it with compassion, with understanding, with calm, with faith.

You know, I have no idea how the fuck this is gonna work out, but I know it's gonna work out because when I look at nature, nature works out and I'm a part of that. know, like to me, that's an aspect of the heart. So I hope it's possible to live there all the time. That just reminded me of this moment that happened during my ceremony that was a couple of weekends ago with ayahuasca is like.

I was going through just some kind of like painful things that I had to sit with, really uncomfortable feelings that I was holding onto and that I had no idea before then that I was really even holding onto these feelings regarding this situation. And like I knew I had to obviously like purge this out. Like this is so much energy that was inside of me, but I had to continue to just like let it build and just sit with the discomfort. Like I wasn't going to be able to do anything to like purge it out sooner than.

sooner than it was ready to go and sooner than I was ready to let it go. And I remember like, kept getting up, I would like dry heave a little bit and then I'd be like, nope, not yet. And then I like sit back down, feel it more, get back up the same thing. I remember like at one point I did that and I was just like sitting up with the bucket right in front of me, dry heaving, still nothing coming out. And I'm like, it's severely uncomfortable. But I remember I just started laughing in that moment and just being like, you know, for,

as uncomfortable as this is and as much as I want this to be done sooner rather than later, I remember still being able to just realize, man, this is just so beautiful that I get to be able to have this experience right now surrounded by all these really beautiful people. And the music was really nice. And so being able to find that little bit of lightness even within these very dark emotions and dark things that we might be going through.

And it just served as like a really great reminder that again, like there's always light and there's always going to be bits of unpleasantness and discomfort. Even when you are fully aligned with love at any given moment, it's not going to be all love and light and joy. You know, realizing that you can still hold love in your heart and be very angry and be very sad and feel all of these other things while still being aligned with that love. Absolutely. Absolutely. Right. And, and, it,

For a lot of people it seems like kind of intuitive, right? But like the ability to bring all those emotions into love, right? A lot of us is like, okay, I'm in my heart, I'm in love. And like, now I'm super pissed or now I'm sad and I have to kind of come back to love. But it's like, can we actually sit in that place and invite all of that discomfort into the space of the heart, all of that anger, all of that fear, and then like allow it to transform in that space? What a beautiful thing.

And thank goodness for our ability to find that humor in those moments. I remember the first time I drank ayahuasca, was like, wow, I've never laughed, cried and thrown up at the same time before. And I just did that. Like, wow, that's a new one. Right. Yeah, the ability that we have to hold all of these seemingly conflicting ideals together, like it can mess with...

with me sometimes, just like being able to hold the love and then also be like, hold the anger at the same time and like hold the fear. Like again, these, like this dualistic existence like that we have is sometimes very, very challenging and sometimes makes me wish that I could just like turn it off a little bit and you know, not dive deeper into it because it makes you question and it makes you like face these

harsh realities and like harsh truths that are sometimes more uncomfortable to deal with than if you were just like blissfully unaware. Like when I see people that are so blissfully unaware of, you know, their reactions to things of how they walk in the world, you know, I realize that everybody's always struggling with some stuff and whether they choose to admit it or not, like everyone is always struggling with some of these things. And, you know, it can be really tempting

to just not deal with it and hope it goes away. But it just never is gonna work like that. Like it's always happening within your subconscious. So it's usually easier to make those things conscious to try to actually deal with it than to allow them to control every single thing that you do from there. Absolutely, absolutely agree. And I mean, so there's the art stuff that's true for, and then, you know, even if you do somehow manage to completely ignore all of that, like look at the world.

look what's going on and how, you know, I mean, we feel all of this, you know, connected to all of this. So it's always going on. There's no lack of transformation needed. And it's all a reflection of us too. Like when we look at the world and everything that's happening now, like this is like everything that's here is created by us, created by humans. So this is just a reflection of where we are collectively as a species.

And it's hard too, to not get super discouraged and think in years and years and years from now, because what's happening right now, like the division, the war, everything, it's not gonna get resolved within our lifetimes, most likely. Like we can keep chipping away and like working at it, but you know, it's gonna take hundreds, if not thousands of years to truly resolve all of this conflict, all of this anger, like all of these.

held in emotions that we all have for each other that we've just been born with. And like they've been passed down from generations and generations and generations before us. Like it's not our fault, but it is our responsibility to do something about it now and come to that place of acceptance with. And I think so many people just don't want to accept the fact that it's there. Like again, they would much rather turn the other way.

and think like, well, I'm fine. Like, I don't think this way. So I don't need to do anything. We're like, we're all part of it, man. Like it's us. It's always been us. You know, we're so used to this like individualistic society. I'm clearly still very open and going through a lot right now. So I might just be rambling at some point. This is great. No, I'm like, this is exactly right. It's like, let's look at it. It's true. Wow.

look at everything that's going on in the world. And you're right, and there's so many of us, it's uncomfortable to acknowledge that all of those wars, all of those terrors, all of those things that are happening out there exist in some small way in me also. I have those, even in my microaggressions and the way I speak to myself and the way I think about that asshole who just cut me off. Like if you were to magnify that by a thousand.

Right? That energy, it's subtle, but that energy is the same energy we see playing out collectively in these huge waves with these major things going on. That's why I think that this work is so, so powerful. I might not be able to go fly out to somewhere and stop some catastrophe from happening, but I can go inside and end the war in myself right now. I can allow that to ripple out into my conversations and my interactions with people.

I mean, that's like one of the most powerful forms of activism to me. That inner transformation. I forgot exactly what it was that you said that we were talking about the first time that we had a discussion, but I remember you mentioning something about like in the way that we interact with like the population that experiences homelessness. And it's like made me think about the way that like when I'm in Denver, like there's a very, very large homeless population that

I'll have the tendency to look the other way and not make eye contact. I don't wanna see that it's there. It's made me really question what is it within me that is so uncomfortable that doesn't wanna have to deal with that reality right there? I forget exactly what we were saying, but I'm not sure if you remember. Yeah, me too, but I have some thoughts right now on that.

It's in line with what we're just talking about. All of these things that are happening out in the world in some way exist in me. And as we're talking, these unconscious things that go unchecked still put out energy into the world. And there are people who are playing out the underbelly, playing out the unconscious, playing out the shadow of the collective.

and through addictions and through suffering and confusion and psychosis and all of my craziness is out there. And then there are especially sensitive, vulnerable individuals who are picking all of that up and playing it out. And oftentimes those people are the people who are talking to themselves on the streets or going through all these other forms of suffering. And it's really hard to acknowledge that.

that we're playing a part in that.

So where does someone start? When we're trying to hold all these things and like, I don't know, do something about it, it can seem so fucking daunting to be like, holy shit, what is me, what am I going to do about any of this shit? Why even start in the first place?

Yeah, I think it really comes back to the heart again, which tells me that I'm not an individual. I mean, I'm an individual, that's, I'm kind of playing this for a second, but really it's like I'm interconnected with all of this. And the healing of me is the healing of the world.

And so, you know, it's starting within. Okay, we might not see the beautiful light -filled ending, right, in this lifetime, like you said, but I can know that peace in this life. And I can walk out into the world and I can share that peace with others through, again, my interactions, through the look in my eyes, through the vibration that I put off. I can know that, I can hold that, I can live that and share that. And we don't...

ever understand how far that's gonna ripple out. What are some of the things that you struggle with right now, whether it's in your own spirituality, with the work that you do, just with any aspect of your life? Like what are the things that you're really trying to work on?

One of the things that I really struggle with is my own sensitivity and my own ability to perceive the very real darkness in the world. And I experience that on a very personal level, very, very often. There are some things that I experience that, you know, if I were to go to a doctor, I could probably be diagnosed with something like schizophrenia.

I hear things, I see things and I have almost my whole life really really intense. And for a while I thought I was just totally crazy. I didn't tell anyone about it. But this is something that a lot of people experience. We are absolutely connected to all of the things that are happening in the world. this is my understanding of mediumship, is that we're all connected.

And that it's all of our responsibility to untangle this mess. And now we're all doing that on some level, whether we're aware of it or not. I'm super aware of it. Well, right. We're either untangling it or we're tangling it further. Yeah. And even in that tangling it further, you know, it's really, I mean, to me, right, this is like the only way I can get out of bed in the morning.

Right? Is this, this belief, this view that like even in like the tangling it further, it is supporting, it is supporting. It is still like the great, the great unraveling. If you were looking at that way and like, yeah, looking, looking at healing is something is like, it's not, it's not linear. Like it's not all going towards the thing. It's, it's oftentimes one step forward, two steps back, three steps forward. Right. Right. And it's like this free will, you know, like I'm here learning how to use my free

And I can't do that unless I can make a fully informed decision to use it for good. So that means like looking and at and tasting and feeling all of the other things. So even in this more tingling, it's like we're getting collectively to a point of waking up and choosing something different. I think one of the hardest things too about it is like giving yourself active permission to also make a mistake during that process and to like, to do the wrong thing.

Like in knowing that that's going to happen. Cause if you spend all of your time trying to not make the mistake, like you're, you're not really moving forward. You're probably just halting yourself wherever you're at. For sure. For sure. Yeah. Being vigilant doesn't make you good. It just makes you tense. Yeah. I like that. Well, as we, as we wrap up here, is there, is there anything else that you feel called to share at this moment? And, with, with anybody that might be listening?

You know, just, even in moments where we can't feel it, you know, in moments where it doesn't look like this is what's happening, there's something really important happening all over the earth. And that's why it's so, so, so intense right now. You know, it's like the darkness is rearing its head because there's something really important happening.

I don't know, I just want to encourage people to really embrace that both collectively and in themselves. This is not the time to be afraid. This is the time to actually open our hearts and say, yes, the transformation that's coming to us. Look at this stuff. Open yourself. Uncover your gifts and share those gifts. That's what's being called for right now.

So, you know, and there's time, this is why we hold space for each other. You know, there's times where we can't have that faith. There's times where we can't really touch that compassion in ourselves. And like, thank goodness there are people all around the world who are like doing that. And all we need to do in order to like connect with that like larger current is like breathe into our hearts. That's my message to all people, to myself included, like.

as much as he possibly can come back to that space. We're here for a reason. That is a beautiful message, man. I appreciate you so much. Thank you for coming on and sharing your wisdom and just having this conversation with me, Sending you so much love. Thank you, brother. Yeah, such an honor to join you here. Thank you so much.

Thank you everybody for listening. Thank you to Niko for coming on the podcast. Again, if anyone is interested in learning more about Niko or Jungian, be sure to check out the footnotes of the podcast for links, especially if you're interested in joining their upcoming retreat in Colorado in October. That is all I got for you. If anyone is interested in reaching out to me for collabing in any way.

Send me an email at tripsittingblog@gmail.com. I always appreciate connecting with anybody who listens to this. So I hope you all have a beautiful day. Sending you much love.