087 Eli Katz: Guardian, Entrepreneur, Ceremonialist

Eli Katz shares his experiences with Ayahuasca and other plant medicines and his knowledge of human design and holistic health. He discusses his first Ayahuasca experience in 2003, which helped him heal from trauma. He also talks about his love for nature and his experiences hiking the Appalachian Trail. Eli emphasizes the importance of ceremony and ritual in different cultures, particularly in Japan, and how it can create a sense of honor and connection. He also discusses the energetic properties of plants like Bobinsana and Miel para los Santos Niños, and how they can enhance spiritual practices and intuition. Eli discusses the importance of building relationships with plant spirits and the practice of stillness and presence. He emphasizes the need to let go of old patterns and create space for new experiences. Cam and Eli also explore the concept of 'just being' and the power of witnessing. They share insights on the challenges in the plant medicine world and the need for collective action to address them. Additionally, They discuss the importance of transparency, community involvement, and honoring indigenous wisdom in the unfolding of psychedelic therapies.

The Bobinsana Honey we spoke about on the podcast can be ordered by sending a DM to Eli's Instagram account.

Connect with Eli
Website: https://be.wholeandtrue.com/
Company Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wholeandtrueisyou/
Personal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cbdaddydenver/

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Transcript

Welcome everybody to the TripSitting podcast. I am incredibly excited about today's guest. I sat in ceremony with him about four weeks ago when I was on my ayahuasca journey and he was one of the guardians there. And not only is he someone who is incredibly knowledgeable on human design, holistic health, master plant teachers and natural medicine. He's been working with medicine for over 20 years now.

but he has such an incredible heart and joy and vitality to him that he is infectious to be around in the best way possible with just a yearning for learning and a lust for life. And I'm so excited to have him today. So without further ado, today's guest is Eli Katz.


so much that I want to talk to you about because we connected so deeply. It felt like when we were at the retreat together and yet at the same time, I knew that I was only scratching the surface of your experiences and what you've been through and just how much you have to teach not just me, but you know, the world about.

I mean, existing as a human being, being a soul inside of one of these bodies.

You certainly have a lot of experience. So thank you for joining me today. Thank you for having me. Where I want to start is at the beginning, if you don't mind, which I remember you telling me that your first experience with Ayahuasca was in 2003, correct? Correct. At Temple of the Wave of Light in Peru. Yes. So what was it that led you there?

So I was led there. In 2003, I was a disaster of a human being. I was completely traumatized by the events of being September 11th first responder. And it had allowed my inability to wrangle that and to make any sense of what had happened to lead me into patterns that were really unhealthy.

And so I'm so grateful that I had friends who decided, in their form of intervention, was to fly to New York and sit me down and say, this can't continue. You're not going to find what you're looking for here in the United States. And we have some suggestions. Get ready for a trip. So they pointed me towards Hawaii.


where they thought I wouldn't come back, so they didn't recommend that. They pointed me towards Japan, to Tokyo, and they said, it'll take a year for you to be accepted. You could go to Costa Rica, or you could go to South America, we think Peru. And then they had connections at the temple, of the way of light, and so I sent a letter off, and I waited. And I waited, and I waited some more. And then I, finally things came together, and I went down, and it was.

As messed up as I was, I registered only about one out of every 10 details. remember. I just remember being there finally and going, what have I signed up for? And then little by little, it all peeled away. The statement was that Mama Aya shows you your darkness, and San Pedro shows you your delight. And so it was ceremony of three nights of grandmother.

immediately followed by with this verse with three days of huachuma. All in a row. All in a row, no rest. It was just brief rest, brief naps. I was like, I have never thrown up so much in my entire life. It was like purging getting well, purging, my god, it's coming out of everywhere. And at the end of it, I just sobbed and I felt so clean.

And so I felt maybe 60, 70 pounds lighter of the grief. And I all of sudden had a sense of there was a different option than just feeling so horrifically bad about myself. And so angry at the world and the government and the way in which we allowed ourselves to move into this us versus them model.

Did you just stay there for that week and then immediately come back? No, I was there for Dieta. So the seven days preceding. And then I did the actual journeys. And then I was there for Dieta at the end of it and integration. Gotcha. And I think I filled up seven notebooks.


In seven days. Yeah. I'm great. Journaling has been a phenomenal practice for me. Ever since I can remember, I've always kept, whether it's short notes or whether it's actual long log entries, I've been able to review back.

where my head was when I was thinking and I was taught when you were writing, when you were working in a notebook, never tear a page out. Just flip the page if you find yourself doing something that isn't relevant because you're solving a problem. Something is going on there. Just keep turning it over and start again. so reviewing those journals has been really key for integration too. Yeah. So when did you then end up actually coming back to the States? 23 days total. I was...

I had intended to spend some more time down there, and I was just completely overwhelmed. And really felt that I needed to return back to see if home was home. And when I got there, it was not. And so I decided, OK, well, let's go back to nature. And so I set out to hike the Appalachian Trail. And that was a different challenge to experience. Yes.

made it about 300 miles and got horrifically infected blisters. I was like, okay, let's time and pause this one. 300 miles is a pretty sizable distance. It is, yes. And when you're 50 miles from the nearest exit out there and you've got blisters, streaks creeping up the back of your legs, and every step is like, You're like, I did this to myself. I this to myself. I got myself in this mess, let me get myself out.

I think actually if I had not had the experience with grandmother, I probably would have just said, I'm done. This is enough, I'm just gonna die. I don't have any fight left in me. And I was able to look back at some of that and go, no, no, actually I do have money, many more within me. I'm vast, I contain multitudes. So once you were back, how did you then...


really start working with medicine back in the States because I medicine's been a pretty big part of your journey since then. I wanted to take a moment actually to acknowledge integration. It took a long time to find somebody who could help me back in the States and my dad, who's a clinical psychologist, shout out to dad, he...

found a LCSW who did EMDR. And so she was able to understand something of what I had been through and to help me get grounding and some awareness of the challenges of us facing and how to begin thinking about them in different ways to allow them to really unfold and keep unfolding. And that was, in that process, that's when I went back and reopened.

a chance I had in 1999 going into the millennium to experience the little ones, the mushrooms. Where I went to Maui for the millennium and I had the classic bonfire on the beach kind of picking fresh mushrooms and doing the hippie kind of thing down off Kapao. And it was phenomenal. And I remember feeling a deep connection to them at that time and recognizing that they were a sentient presence, not just something to eat or to get us high.

but it was something else that was going to be there with us and with me. And I tapped back into that. And so 2006 was when I kind of put it all together and was like, OK, well, what if I took my experiences dancing and my time with MDMA and Ketamine in New York clubs and realizing, OK, that part of me was fairly stable and solid. I know what to do when I'm dancing. It's the rest of it that doesn't always make sense. So I began working to.

source mushrooms and just source other medicines and people to practice harm reduction in that way. Yeah. And figuring out what was appropriate because there really wasn't any material on this. Yeah. At that point, I wrote a, what came to be a dosage calculator for mushrooms, which was very early on that one. It was one of those, if you have these things in growing near you, these strains, this is roughly what you're going to need for this level of experience.


So what was that process of integration like for you, like coming back after this incredible experience back then, psychedelics not really being something that people are talking about nearly as openly as they are today. Like did it feel really lonely? Hugely lonely. And it was interesting because I was used to a life from New York City of life of rushing. And go, go, go, go, go, go, go.

you always know what's coming next and you have your week, your month, your year planned out. And all of a sudden I just didn't. thankfully I did not try to fill it with stuff and I just kind of got still. And that's when I realized that I was dreaming again and I realized that I was noticing things in a way that was relevant and actually meaningful to me as opposed to just feeling like I was always distracted or always if I'm supposed to be doing this, why am I gazing over there?

So that stillness was a great gift. Yeah. What was your relationship like with nature before you went off to Peru versus? I love nature. I'm total nerd. At 12 years old, I was a junior curator at the Museum of Natural Sciences in North Carolina, helping take care of all the living creatures in the museum. And then going to spend time in Trinidad and Tobago at a nature center. So I've always been, I've loved hiking. I've loved spending time, I've loved forest bathing.

Japanese in high school, so I learned about that practice early and the importance of getting out into nature and being still I had studied a little bit about food forestry during that process as well, so permaculture which is Again now it's like that was really early for this At the time it was just like this is really cool

I might, down in North Carolina, near NC State University, they were doing some really amazing agricultural work. Yeah. Yeah. So that was my exposure to it early on. And I'd always maintained that.

When I was, I moved around a lot. My parents, when I was born, my dad was finishing up his PhD. And so we moved from Atlanta to Alexandria, Virginia when I was six weeks old. And I should say that I was six years. And then we moved to rural North Carolina and then to Raleigh, North Carolina. And then my parents separated and I moved out to California, to Los Angeles for two years. Then back to North Carolina to graduate high school and then to New York. Yeah. What drew you to New York?

I was always interested in presentation design in theater and film. So I went to NYU and I got my bachelor's of fine arts in set and costume design from Chess School of the Arts. So it was the home of, it was where Broadway was. It was where this wonderful program, you know, there's only so many schools out there that taught this intensive conservatory style education with liberal arts support. I was like, okay.

No, I couldn't have imagined being anywhere else. And I loved, New York in the 90s was the place to be. We knew it at the time, to be honest. It was quite clear that we were the center of everything in the entire world.

The music was vibrant and the scene was vibrant and the fashion was vibrant. I graduated from NYU and then I got my master's degree at Parsons School of Design. So I got my MFA in design and technology in broadcast design and interactive design. And really learned about how people and computers engage and how those systems work on the back end. And that's how I actually learned about Unix and how to set up low level servers and do the work that eventually has helped me a lot.

along with career and with...

all of it, understanding how things are tied together and what interactions and handoffs look like and how what we kind of think, well, that just happens. Yeah. No, just happens. Do you see any parallels in working with computers and like the technology with that and with the way that the natural world works and the metaphysical world as well? I do see that's a great question. Thank you for asking me that. I do see a lot of parallels. know, Richard Rudd says that we're the interface between the subtle realms.

and that concept of the interface, allowing things to move between the layers and the way in which servers and services are delivered. I think that people don't necessarily think this way, but nature does, because everything is designed. it weren't there to work with us, we wouldn't have the receptors for it. And so that's not an accident. The same is true of these complex computer systems.

they're really going to flow and play out as their designers intended for them to do. Sometimes they don't function as expected, sometimes they perform exactly as intended and make it just more complicated, like people. I think that oftentimes too when you start poking at them, it doesn't go well. I'm grateful to...

Have had the chance to work over in Japan in the mid 2012 2013 because seeing what they were doing at scale was very different than what I had previously been exposed to how so

There was a very large project, and I'm not limited to say exactly what, but a very large effort with a major telecommunications provider. And I was working with a significant cloud services provider. And learning how they thought about things and how their approach to the ancestors and how their approach to the importance of their job. The approach to, you don't know what you're doing in a meeting, get out of that meeting. If you don't know why you're there, leave. Interesting concept. Right.

was fascinating too. When I was, when I, I was flown over there and sort of to, with very little notice to rescue the team that had missed a terrible time and made a huge, huge protocol mistake and the original.

business card ceremony, the meishi. And in doing so, they were then perceived as complete idiots, not worth working with. So all I had to go over there and first thing I had to do was correct that mistake. And when I appeared and showed up with my cards that were printed on both sides, in English and in Japanese, and did the proper bow into them, everybody in the room had to scramble because they were expecting another idiot. So, yeah.

So do they, do they take?

a ceremonial approach to many more aspects of their life is kind of what it sounds like. like there's, I mean, in, in the way that I was brought up and I think just society in general, doesn't really seem like that there are ceremonial practices in America that all of us are accustomed to or attuned to. We all just kind of do what we want to as we please. And we just have to figure it out as we go. which is probably one of the reasons why we might be very divided and oftentimes on very different wavelengths, and don't know how

to attune to somebody else's wavelength. We don't understand how do we actually drop in energetically so we can come to some sort of mutual conclusion or be able to actually have that open conversation. in Japan, what was that like, being able to actually witness that and seeing the difference that it made? So in the US, ceremony is something that we do on special occasions.

Ritual is something that's performed by people who are certified or approved to do so. Over there, it's a matter of honor.

And so everyone is in the process of growing up is taught how to perform certain rituals and how how, how face and how honor are so key to our understanding ourselves in relation to each other and how respecting and maintaining that relationship is key and how that extends from out from self to family and how from self to do the business units and from that to the organization and how that into the district and from that out into

keeps going back and it's a beautiful unfolding there. It's where I learned about the importance of being a ceremonialist there. And you know, we have temples here in the United States that are maintaining those practices from Asia and APJ, and I would say that...

That was the scene, and these things have been practices have been present for millennia there, and have not been changed at all. And why do we do it? Because we do it to honor the doing of it. And there's no necessary need to question it beyond that. There's a peacefulness that comes with it. Yeah. Like it doesn't feel forced? No, it doesn't feel forced. It feels wonderful. Have you had the chance to order omakase?

I have,

So you know about, and you've done so in a Japanese restaurant? Beautiful. So you know how they light up when we do that? And for those who aren't familiar with the term, means essentially, I leave it to you. It is a very high honor to pay a with the chef because they're going to give you the freshest, the bestest of what they have available and what they know they're gonna ask about allergies and you'll have the best meal that you've ever had. And they get to showcase their skills too. Truly, and it's a meal and doing it so,

I was in Japan in 2012. I had the chance to go to a very high end sushi bar in the middle of the week and I turned out to be one of the two people there and had a three and a half hour meal sitting and talking to the mentor of the chef at the sushi bar and just this wonderful conversation. had a phenomenal meal and at the end of it, I think it came to about $450. It was Japan, Tokyo was the most expensive.

place I've ever been. Thank God I was at a expense. So a couple weeks later, I had flown home and I had to return back to Japan. I took a colleague with me and we went back to, and again, had the same experience, just time the sushi bar was full. I mean, were at the, there's a packed one. And dinner for two cost a little over $300.

And I was like, I see how this works. Okay, so we had another wonderful meal, though we didn't have quite the focus on just me and us because of the number of people. Sakigami -san, Sakamoto -san, back in the chefs. And I went back one final time and this time the bill came out to just $110. And it was certainly the most elaborate of all the three that I had there. But I was family.

And that recognition of your family will treat you with the honor that you deserve for being here. They also understand the importance of hosting, where we don't seem to take that very seriously here. What ways do you think that we don't even acknowledge that as a host? Like in what context?

Okay, so we don't acknowledge that hosting creates an obligation. I learned about this in 2016 when I had an Airbnb and had guests came in from Spain that were, they had started a non -profit focused on cannabis as a social club. And when they arrived, they taught me about the fact that if I were to offer them a joint or offer them a dab,

without thinking about it, they're going to accept. Because it's been offered by the host and it's terribly rude to not accept that, even if they don't want it or don't know what it is. so, and you know, for those who don't know, Colorado Dabs are no joke. The struggle is real with that stuff. And so.

And at the time I was dealing with some pretty serious pain in my foot and so I was using that and I learned don't just if I want to share with them I want to put it out into the center and make it available when I put it out when I'm done with it Don't offer the joint got it. What things we would consider here rude puff puff pass. Mm -hmm and That creates a social contract which is unspoken and binding. Yeah And it will ruin over the time of the people who are from other cultures

If we're not careful if we're careless about it and we're careless about a lot of things here. Yeah I don't even think that we're aware of our own social contracts with each other because everybody was raised differently from a different background and it's not something that we ever Really talk about like there's definitely been situations in which you know again somebody you know, Invites me out with them for example and then like, you know if I say no because I have something else going on They might take genuine offense to that when

Again, there was no real prior communication, talk about a defense or anything like that, that I think just people here take a lot of things personally and don't have the full awareness of.

you know, what truly makes sense when we're dealing with each other, with relationships, understanding that you are another complicated human being individual that again has been raised differently and has that. And without being able to have that discussion, I would never know. And then we find it, a lot of people find it rude to then ask some of those things. you know, especially now I see when, you know, when we're talking about.

BIPOC issues or talking about indigenous issues, things like that. Like I've, you know, talked to my friends who are of different ethnicities before and like even people that I just met, like we'll drop in and a deep conversation and I'll ask them, like, hey, what's your ethnicity? And then one of my friends that I was with, like afterwards said, why did you ask them that? It's like, because I was curious and they responded very well, but he was like, that's rude to ask them. I'm like, no, it's not.

I'm simply just a curious individual looking to learn about somebody. And so there are some people that, it's these weird unspoken things that like, we don't talk about that that person's black. We don't mention it. I'm like, if you don't mention it and you don't have these conversations, it doesn't give you an opportunity to actually learn how to work together.

And for this, I blame the iPod. Why's that? Actually, I should say digital media players. Because of the fact that right now these days, would say that most of us are too poor to pay attention and too broke to take a joke. And it's our ability to follow the thread, keep up with the plot.

to understand the through line that was best embodied in the chapters of a book or the tracks of a cassette or a LP or the individual, the programming of that and the thought and consideration that had been placed, the jacket art, all the things that went into the album itself of that experience.

with the transition to digital media players, it went from album into track. And it became about the artist and the popularity of that one piece, rather than that piece as part of a movement of a bigger process. so, yeah, I strongly think that that has damaged, certainly it's damaged Millennials, it's damaged Gen Z.

because of the fact that people really can't keep up. And so that is personal because it's always flooding them with whatever the experiences are right now. And they haven't yet integrated it out with five minutes ago. And understanding that, right, this leads to that and one thing leads to another. Without dwelling on the past or thinking about the future, like where it's going to go, being able to just exist within this pocket of now. Correct. Yeah.

The container they also don't have any understanding of energetic discharge and no good practices around that though That's easily remedied with a little bit of attention from from mentors or loved ones Because when people get full they stop being able to process new things and all of a sudden they are not only full But they're standing in traffic

just trying to catch their breath and figure out where they are, and inadvertently throwing everyone else around them off. And so you wind up with that cascading effect. Now I've learned in my own way of being to be much more graceful and to recognize when somebody from another, a following generation is really becoming overwhelmed and trying to be much kinder to them, even when I'm having a difficult time with how they may be presenting in that space. Being generous of spirit and recognizing that I wish that

You know did someone intrude me in times when I was being someone was being abrupt. Let's be soft Let's be gentle. Yeah Well, i'd like to change the topic a little bit in this conversation and Something that I know that you have so much knowledge and wisdom of is of the different energies of so many different plants because you have worked with them

out of the context of what we consider plant medicine, not just the psychedelic ones that are making you go through a trip and have that, because as sure as we're both very aware, all plants are medicine. And so they can be used as such. So like what have been some of the most impactful.

plants that you've worked with outside of the realm of psychedelics and what do they do, how have you learned to use them? I'd love to just be able to dive in there. Again, great question, thank you. So in the Amazonian Basin, there are many plants that are considered master or teacher plants. And so they are here as tools and guides for us.

to be help us understand them. And first thing we have to do is learn how to, for them, they need to see us and we have to hear them. And so it requires a process called dieta of, and that's not simply paring away things, that's removing almost everything that's a distraction and learning how to recognize the plant singing to you. And learning about the practices of things like mapacho, the tobacco.

and cleansing yourself in the smoke so that your energetic field can be seen and received by Pachamama, by the plant itself. The most important of these that I have experienced is Bobinsana. Senorita Bobinsana. Heart medicine is, Bobinsana is a plant, a teacher plant that grows in the banks of the Amazon. It's related to the mimosa. It is these bright pink puffs.

And it is a joy and wonder to introduce to one's life because it really opens up the heart in a way that I never even knew possible. And I had a lot of experience with MDMA and I thought I got that energetic connection there. I also understood the jittery eyeball experience. There's a gentleness to Senorita, the doctorcita. She's sweet.

and she's also playful and she's also, like mermaids are, beguiling and allows to follow the eddies and currents within oneself. We talk about the river as the metaphor for getting flowing state and being in it. And so allowing Vobhansana to open up our heart.

One of the things that's also really important to know is that Bowman -Sana doesn't have the penalties on the heart valves. And so the way that MDMA is, and does on the 5 -HT2B receptors. it's a powerful tool for that in that way. The other thing that Bowman -Sana does is it opens up our dream channel and lucid dreaming. Yes. I've been, so, well first I guess.

Richard mentioned that you actually have a Bobinsana product, which is a mixture of acacia honey and Bobinsana in a tincture. So I've been using that for the last three weeks, pretty much since ceremony, every single night. And my dreams have been...

some of the most vivid dreams that I've ever had in my entire life. Like it's been really, really amazing to to like feel that and like, you know, I haven't, haven't had visions of, know, the black mermaid or necessarily anything like that, but I can tell when I wake up that it's, it's because of the bobinsana, that my mind is, is, activated and I'm like accessing this, this state that I'm not necessarily used to within, within my sleep.

The energetic body is amazing. Yeah It really is the allowing it to be so vibrant I'm assuming you dream in color. Yes. Yeah

I have lost track of the number of people who have given me feedback that they were not dreamers prior to experiencing this, or if they were, they've not remembered any of that. And so that's, again, driven to distraction. And the release of that, the blockage in the heart that has kept them from connecting the heart and the mind within the body is gone. And it happened so quickly and so gracefully. I remember serving you the first time with it and the warmth that we both experienced.

of it just down the delightfulness down the chest and like it felt like an energetic hug it's so pleasant it's the best way it's just it's just so pleasant like it's not like it's getting you high or anything like that it's just this warm

feeling like you're getting a warm hug. It's the difference between a smile and a grin. So it's like, just, I remember finding it and experiencing it in Peru and then not experiencing for a long time until Shanti served it back in December of last year when I was on a retreat with her and

It brought back all of those experiences and memories. I thought, why on earth did I not focus on my higher tries this feeling among all else? And sure enough, again, that night I began to have these incredible dreams. And in a way that I've remembered my dreams for a long time, but this is a whole different, I can get up and go to the bathroom and I can go back to sleep and I pick up the dream where it was. Pick up the same dream. Right. That's a different experience there. And remembering that.

And also not feeling as though I have to look for the meaning within it of recognizing that just capture the story go start with sense -making not with meaning making and Allowing that to be the beauty of it

And no rush on that one. We have all the time in the world. While we're sleeping, we are every state. We're our most pure, and we're doing the most healing of our physical form. So we're envisioning all these new possibilities there. So that's the most powerful tool that I've found. The other, honey, that came forward back this past March.

I was leading a men's group retreat and I had ordered the pastes to make these honeys and I wasn't quite sure exactly which was going to go where. There's lot of, there's 22 active, there's more than that, there's 22 primary teachers. And so I had decided to work with five of them. And I finished the first night of the mushroom retreat and it went beautifully. And as I'm winding down trying to get ready for bed, I lay back, I close my eyes and.

Boom, a download comes through, fully formed. Okay, fine, get the journal, just write it all down. And it turned out to be the Miel para los Niños Santos. And it is a tool that is sublimely perfect to use with energetic work or with medicine work. It stands on its own beautifully well, just like the Bowman Sana. If you're any spiritual practices,

These tools, they will deepen your experience. Your noticing will sharpen up so that you are intensely attuned to what's going on in this moment, in this space, in this breath, and being able to stay there. So in the miel, there's four active ingredients. There's the ahasacha, which opens up your vortex, connects you to your intuition, and awakens any dormant or latent psychic ability.

If you already have those wired up, it will take them and open that channel wide up. your bandwidth expands. There's Bopin Sana for the heart. There's Shiwa Waku, which is the redwood of the Amazon, the shining spirit. That's the wisdom of the forest. And so I put it in there to install that wisdom into the gut to help us make better decisions, especially when they're intuition -based, so you don't necessarily have all the facts.

And lastly, there's Aya Huma, the Fierce Protectress. She helps with the release of stuck energy from the fascia and the deep, deep grounding.

And so it's really, it feels like it's the center column of fluidity, but also support in every, the energetic body, the physical body, if you're exhausted, it gives you strength. If you're too wound up, it calms you down. It just is a really nicely balancing tool that helps every bit of your body recognize what it's here for and to serve us, with us, in harmony with us as opposed to.

Quiet my monkey mind, quiet my monkey mind. Have you done Dietza with all of those four individually before? I haven't actually. And so this is another one where I'm grateful to Shanty Lux for the fact that she leaks information to me over the Dream Channel. And the reality is that plants call out to you and they sing to you. And so when Boba Sanna began singing to me and I attuned to it,

These began, I started to get images of these other plants and names, and I didn't really understand what was going on, but I would wake up and I'd draw and sketch something and I would think about it. Or I'd have this weird smell in my, what am I smelling here? And it turned out that's the actual plant aroma, the aromatics, or what's known as the enin, enchi people, the energetic body of everything that's the not physical form of the plant.

These innings are all around us if you know how to see and receive them. And it's, I think of it like the old Pepe Le Pew. But much more satisfying and enjoyable. And then they let you know it's time. Just like Grandma lets you know it's time. How does one go about?

practicing how to be able to sense and receive these beautiful spirits that are around us all the time, because it's not something I would even grow up with the awareness of. And let's say, you know, without plant medicine, that's been my biggest portal into this world. But there's a lot of people where that's not an option. They don't necessarily want to go that route. So like, how do we gain that awareness and begin to build that relationship?

We begin to build relationships by, we begin to do new things by stopping old things. So, mnemonicas, stop starting, start stopping. Intense, dieta. So you can do dieta here in the US, you don't have to go to Peru for this. But you need to be consciously.

giving up things in order to create room for yourself to be able to move into this new space. And it's ceremonial in this way. So you honor by moving into this new phase. I'm actually marking the moment. I'm honoring everything that got me to now. And I'm releasing that which no longer serves and giving it back to the earth. And now that I have this expanded capacity here, I'm choosing to fill it with stillness.

and with just this one thing. And I don't feel any urge necessarily to do anything. I feel the urge to be present with the plant. So that means taking, smelling it, holding it, allowing it to be with you and recognizing that it has an energetic body just like we do. know, it was Starstuff's the way we were too, we are too. And it has lessons for us.

as well as an awareness of the fact that if we don't honor them, it's still for us. It's only just a little bit more abrupt. And so also recognizing that however it shows up for you is beautiful and perfect. There's no wrong way to do it except to not do it. I think a lot of people get very...

caught up in how it's supposed to be, that it discourages people, one, from ever beginning in the first place, and then once they start, it's not happening the way that they would like, and then they stop. Like, again, it's just the way that we are hardwired as a society is to expect certain outcomes when you do certain things, and I think working with...

the metaphysical world is the exact opposite of that. It's simply allowing things to just be and exist without trying to think of the future, without trying to change, without trying to do anything other than just be. The concept of just being, didn't understand that and that was just the biggest, one of the biggest downloads I had when I first worked with grandmother was literally those two words, just be.

And it feels very uncomfortable if you're not used to doing that at the beginning. Mother Mary, come to me. Whisper words of wisdom. Yeah, let it be. And even when I hear the word just, I almost feel the pejorative is just. Being is plenty.

Along the way, I've had a couple of near -death experiences. And unfortunately, the most recent one was not too long ago. In that process, I had lots of flashing back to my seventh grade English class, where I was drilled on be, am, is, are, was, were, been, being, all the forms of the verb to be. And that was so front and center present during this time when I was dying on the table.

coming out of it and doing the integration of what was that about and realizing that doing the voices that say be productive, do something. Doing is ego or shadow or both at work. And so whenever we're called to do something, no, no, no, no, you don't need to do anything, you just need to be something, be still, be yourself, be beautiful, be brave, be courageous, be valuable, be whole and true. So.

For me, I know it's super easy to get caught up when I hear things like that. Again, this is the ego at work, but I hear just B, then I think like, okay, I'm just gonna sit here and do absolutely nothing. And then, you I'm gonna starve, I'm not gonna drink water. Like, just like, can, like it feels like I need to take it to just the every extreme of like.

quite literally not moving, not doing a single thing. Did you hear the trap in what you just said? Do absolutely nothing is the command. That's do. Yeah, that's a do, but also you give yourself a command. Do absolutely nothing. And so your unconscious mind heard that and accepted it as the, okay, I'll go forward with that. Do absolutely nothing. Okay, now I'm trapped here in a loop.

I'm not productive with this. god, I'm not productive again. I'm wasting time here. the monkey mind is back, full force. So neuro -linguistic programming was a hugely helpful tool along the way. So I'll give a shout out to Veronica Light -Norris Perez for the training for that at her school. I took that course in October of 2023. And it helped me connect with people and hear how their internal representational state is playing out and how they're showing me the world.

And understanding, wait, I used to do some of those things. The do, the do, the do, okay. I'm very in tune to being and I still, every now and then slip out and go, how you doing? no, how you being? And also the idea that we're human beings and the beings are beautiful selves. There's nothing you have to do to be beautiful. It's not about makeup, it's not about clothes, it's just be and appreciate that.

And this is where it comes into, you asked about how Jesus is going to begin, also gratitude. Gratitude for the moment, gratitude for self, gratitude for my ability. I have gratitude for the fact I'm here now. I came off that table, I'm walking, I survived, I healed. And I am so deeply grateful. All of this is a gift.

All of this is magically beautiful and not in any insincere way. It's beautiful in a way that there's so much more there. You can just allow yourself to be still and then you see the deepening of that and it will fill your heart and it will just overflow.

with joy and with light and with all of the potential of that interaction. And yet you don't have to do a thing, you just have to be still. There is so much there that is absolute gold. Thank you for that beautiful nugget. To switch gears a little bit too, I'm wondering from your perspective.

with the way that everything is moving in the plant medicine world right now with, well, one, mean, MDMA actually just got rejected as a therapy by the FDA, but even just the way that you see certifications on how to serve mushrooms and MDMA and different things, what are some of the biggest challenges you see in the way that everything's unfolding and how...

Do you think we need to collectively go about trying to maybe fix some of those challenges that are coming online? So I came of age in a time where there was a movement called Refuse and Resist. So I think that we have gone about things, unfortunately, in the wrong way here in Colorado. We have followed the Oregon model. And so we allowed ourselves to brush and to

take input from people who are not invested in the ways in the getting it right. And we put an artificial deadline on that. And so I refuse to honor that deadline or allow that to be something that is going to move us and myself forward. Along this path, most recently, I've had the opportunity to step into the role of executive director of the Association of Anthiogenic Practitioners, the AEP, which can be found at aep .community.

And so that is an organization, a National 501c3, that is the membership is people who believe that entheogens, substances that connect us with the divine within, that's a human right. And so I practice active resistance, not passive resistance. I...

I struggle with it sometimes because of the fact it's like, okay, well yes, I'm going to be doing ceremony in a different state. I'm a licensed medicine carrier and I'm going to follow the best practices and I'm going to have all of it and hopefully I don't have to actually engage with somebody who's got ill intentions or wish me harm or worse, interferes with me. But we'll be tied, they need that. Because Sean McAlister's a really good lawyer. And Danny Beardson's a really good lawyer.

In any case, it's a sacrament. think along the way people think, this is just drugs. This is just drugs in different forms. You kids eat your drugs. And then we have the medicine people who have taken, and everything is medicine, energy medicine. All music is medicine music, by the way. Every song was written by somebody who was trying to make sense of the world around them before they went crazy. And so recognizing how to hook in with somebody in that moment in the ceremony is really key.

There's no way, you don't win ceremony. You're the best one though. What do mean? Right. I had the best. Of all of us here, mine was the bestest. I got the most downloads. Correct. Here's my bucket of downloads. No, that's purge. They're not the same thing. That being said, music must be sharing the gifts of things, not doing things in transactional ways.

of pure joy and feeling this is here. This is calling out for what needs to be called in. I'm honoring this. wait, something isn't here. What isn't here? Let's take a moment and drop in.

right, we haven't done so plow, we haven't recognized and honored ourselves with tobacco, we haven't given tobacco to the earth or to the plants. Let's stop and do that and get ourselves in right relation. These First Nations practices that are so key to being in harmony with oneself and with the world, they're not hard to pick up, but they're important to recognize, if they've been missed, but how easy is it to correct course then?

We're also a culture now that devalues apologizing and stopping and doing the right thing. We double down on wrong. Don't recommend that practice. No, it's very ego -driven practice. It's good to have a healthy ego, but that's not part of a healthy ego, denialism. And as I heard along the way, even a five -year -old couldn't say they're sorry. It's one of the first things we're taught. Yeah, you don't have to start with an apology. You have to start with taking a moment and close your eyes and...

And you get, okay, what am I here to do? I'm here to, I'm singing Happy Birthday. You know what I'm, I'm here to, I'm here to sing the National Anthem. I'm here to unite these couple at Holy Matrimony. I'm here to be the official, I'm here to be this. the moment needs me to be nothing. Just be myself and be present and witness this. That witnessing has been another huge gift.

of understanding that there are many, many roles to play out there. And sometimes things just need to be seen. They did happen. They don't need to be described. They don't need to be illustrated. They don't need to be embroidered. They just need to be seen so that they can be honored in that moment as the.

the moment it collapses, all the possibilities are still there, but by seeing them and witnessing that, they get encoded into the Akashic records. And so, right then and there, it's like, cool, you've been a part of creation of history in time. Aren't you something? It can be really easy for me sometimes to try to immediately attach meaning to the things that happen. And in doing that,

I'm almost like closing my scope and not actually then even seeing all that's there and like all that's in front of me. I remember when I first came back from Peru after Ayahuasca, I did a solo journey with mushrooms.

And just because I was like, I had done some really good deep integration work. I feel ready to work with this again. And looking back on it now, almost the entire time, I was trying to make sense of the entire trip as the trip was happening. And it just ended up being incredibly confusing at the end. And I'm like, well, I don't really know what just happened there, to be completely honest. And that was it. I'm grateful for my most recent NDE.

the downloads, because I was in the grandmother weekend when this happened. I had to have an emergency appendectomy. And I became very clear early on, do not analyze this. Simply experience it. Go all the way through it, and then analyze. If you stop and analyze, you'll get stuck, and you will likely die. Because otherwise, you're caught in these things, and you have no idea.

Back when we were working to get to what became the National Medicine Health Act, at the time it was Prop 58, and we drafting it, and I remember the My Coalition meetings that were taking place, and discussing with community members, and when it came time for my turn to speak.

I remember urging us to simply stop trying to say what we needed to do. We did not need to do anything because we did not yet know what the scope of the problems were or have any awareness of who had yet to be recognized and who was not even present to be marked absent. Why are we rushing so hard and so quickly to do this? Slow down, check, you didn't take stock.

Everyone here has been seen, here, have we heard from everyone here? Have we given people the chance to be in the moment? Have we given the moment a chance to unfold? And have we come back around it to put some closure on this one? So why are we not going to go to the next?

I think this is also, unfortunately, a part of our culture moving to services -based and transactional -based tools. So we're just used to the fact that computers don't work, or that cloud services are down, or that, I can't find this contact on my phone. I can't find this thing. I'm going to journal on my phone, and then I'm going to make it, what's this text message? I forgot all about the journaling. I forgot all the integration. I just got new phone. my god, it's on the old thing. All of it's treated as so meaningless.

There is something to be said for pen and paper and dead tree materials. there's also the magic of the incantation that happens when the thought leaves your brain, goes down your arm, goes into the hand, and goes on the paper. When you speak it aloud in your mind as you write it down, that is actually creating a spell. I learned along the way that magic with a K equals intention plus action minus commitment to outcome.

the entitlement of the outcome. No, you're not entitled to that, to Jack. That's not magic. But magic is truly, what's my intention? How my actions, our actions define, our intentions define the quality of our actions. And cross -checking that, making sure, you know, I do a lovely little ritual with people sometimes to tell their intention, get it up here. Now move that down into your heart. Now take a moment to check to see if those are the same thing.

And if they are, let's take a moment. Now let's spin the intention wheel. And as we exhale, let's release that intention to the universe. If it's not aligned, let's take a moment and reload the elevator. Because otherwise, just like a space shuttle, if it goes up and it's just slightly off, then you wind up way over here. What's the road to to pave with? Good intentions. What's the road to heaven to pave with? Consistency. Thank you, Cy Carson.

My graduate degree, my master's thesis, secondary advisor. Best advice I think I've ever received. Nice is good, done is better. And consistency. Do you think that there is a way for us to...

make psychedelics, make entheogens more widely available to American culture while still being able to honor the indigenous wisdom and the culture that these practices came from with the way that the current system is set up? Or do you think that there's a lot more that we have to unpack before we even actually start trying to do this on a larger scale? Yes, and. I think that there is a lot we can do now.

First of all, if you don't have a relationship with an indigenous community near you, take a moment and look at why that is. And then take a moment to make sure that you're checking your privilege, that you're not going in and demanding that somebody mentor you. Teach me your ways. Right. I'm here in your space. I'm going to take up your time. And you're going to drop what you're doing to do this now with me.

Please, come on, be my token. Going in and just simply being present and attuning to watching, observing, be silent. Listen first. Once you slow down, listen deeply, to quote Runa, to the current of what's happening.

what is and what will be. Secure yourself, your faith, the walls of unraveling. Okay, what you think you know, you do not know. Stop, it's okay. Don't judge yourself. That's how I think we will get through this, is that we will stop judging ourselves and stop all of our egos related to that. We will accept the fact that we didn't do it right and we will realize that we don't have to honor the folks among us who want to rent seek with us.

I feel strongly that the Natural Medicine Advisory Board was populated with people who are very much valuing the rent seeking. What does that mean? Rent seeking is the, it's kind of from the old guild model where only a certain number people should be allowed to practice so that way there's more value for the people who can do this. I think the board is populated with that. We know that Dora is populated with people who believe this. And I'm not gonna name any names, we just can see it in all the actions.

Stop feeling as though the fact that you said yes, it's actually bad. Stop honoring decision making. Decision making is putting that up on a pedestal and holding it up for everyone to admire your decision to do this. Okay, well the people we voted on past Proposition 122, we have to do something now. There's that new word. Now we have to be in integrity, so let's, okay, well 23290 came up. Okay, that kind of got it right -ish.

What is 23-290? 23-290 is the the state's statutory regulations that was implemented to put the National Medicine Health Act into practice. It's what instructed that there has to be rules and regulations set by DORA, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. That's a lot of bureaucracy that got in the way. One of the key things that I think was a mistake that was done was that the behavioral health administration

The big agency that was such an important aspect for Polis was left out of the entire process. is Polis? Jared Polis, our governor here in Colorado. you. Yeah, Governor Polis invested heavily, a lot of political capital in

cutting through the red tape and creating this cabinet level agency, the Behavioral Health Administration, which is above all these other ones in terms of who gets to make and set these things and who's in charge. They were left out of the entire thing. If we're really, this is mental, if this is like, this is the Natural Medicine Health Act, and we're doing this because of behavioral health and mental health, not physical health, which is not this, we didn't bring in the FDA into this one, how could that have happened?

how could this, right, it to the Department of Revenue because it was about rent seeking and taxing people. So again, I strongly encourage people who are recognizing this to refuse, just simply refuse to participate. It's not as though the state is going to get it right tomorrow. But do register as a lobbyist, do participate in the discussion.

Do make your voice heard and let your local legislators know that you are somebody who, if you've used these, your experience is hugely important. And your testimony is very valuable because people who have been willing to talk about this, from you and me, we think of this as our world and everybody knows this. No, the number of people who do this and who are in this world is fewer than 2 ,000 right now in the country.

It's all around us, but no, it's such a small signal to the population. Your voice is very important because it's such now a very big voice in a small pond. also, don't feel like your story is everyone's story. Take a moment, write it down, read it out loud, practice. Ask somebody to listen to you and help you craft that storytelling aspect, because those stories are where the power is.

because that's the actual, it's not just anecdotal, that's where the lived experience of it is, and that's where it will get people to hear you there. It is also important to recognize that if you're going to be at the Capitol that you really do need to recognize people by title, and thank you, speaker. There's protocol that is important to follow.

So that you can know that you can show that you know how to dance you know how to be understanding the ritual that is involved in the Political body the dance people have put some time and effort into getting here and they wouldn't they spent some money on a suit and they got it pressed no matter how Potentially stupid I might think that dances I write it's all well and good to think but if you interrupt if you act up on the floor, will have you removed and Then you'll just be that guy and nobody wants to be that guy. Yeah, so

Like I said, don't think that your story is everyone's story, and just be clear and be simple and practice because two minutes is not much time to speak. So, participating in that process has been so valuable and so gratifying. Even when we got it wrong, you know what, we get things wrong. It's okay, I'm not mad at us. Let's just simply stop trying to say, let's do this right.

If we get to December 31st and it's time to issue licenses, and we issue the license to the stop -load, we're not going to issue any more licenses, because we've issued the one and only license to ourselves, and now there's no more. Okay, well hold up. How's everyone gonna go forth and do this? Well, we're not gonna do this, we're gonna be.

collectively able to be in a new period where we're appending these rules. We're now learning from this. We're going to go out forth and improvise. We're going to go forth and play together in that moment. And it's not going to last forever. We're not going to get crazy. We're not going to, and you're not going to take advantage of each other. We're going to look at what we, where we are and who we're with and all the process, all the moments of ceremonialists practice. Peer specialists are so good at this by the way.

Don't look to elected officials, to your peers and people who are trained as peer support specialists to help you make sense of the now. There's no one with an agenda at that moment. yeah, brought to you by your local human services agency. There's a lot of complication that is involved with trying to get this thing that has been so.

outlawed so much propaganda has been built against it back into our mainstream culture but in in a completely different way like now in in the way that it actually has been used for thousands and thousands of years without again all of the political baggage and the propaganda so like we have to unravel all of that and now also do so much education on top of that

And meanwhile, capitalism is obviously still involved, so there has to be a reason for the government to want to implement this, which ultimately is probably gonna be about money. It is about money because of the fact that given the current state of mental health and given the current state of how expensive it is to treat these in a reactive manner, then it's an opportunity to save tremendous amounts of actual capital.

I think they're also concerned about the number of people, especially veterans who are dying from suicide and of other related causes. But I think it's realistically about how much it costs to support them in the culture of that. And so another way of intervening is to go back before that. Let's fix it after it's happened. Let's see if we can get to it before that. And psychedelics actually allow people to do that. They can go back and affect the timeline.

And so you can interact with somebody on the quantum level. So you can see all the ripples, the pebbles and ponds, of like ductile strains that are getting pulled back in so that they don't have the damaging effects. The butterfly effects don't cause the chaos that are potentially there. It's really important to not have, to consider the source. Don't have a horse in that race.

and expect that you are making an unbiased decision. If you think you are, you're fooling yourself. It's OK. Just own it. And be transparent about it. I've invested this way. I've done these things. I've committed to these courses of action. Well, that's fine. Say, you know what? I'm disclosing this.

I don't believe I have a conflict of interest, but transparency requires that I, you know that I'm on the advisory board of this and I have, you know, this, that, and the other, because everybody has something at stake or else they wouldn't be involved in the first place. So, okay, well, what are they getting out of this? Because there's nobody who's doing this from a purely innocent motive. It's always going back to the helpfulness, only ever at best about control. So people, I was here to help. really?

Help who? you're helping yourself. I see you're losing the table right now while we're all over here bickering. You're probably a little too young to remember. It's despair .com. Demotivational posters. There went for consulting. If you are not part of the solution, there's good money to be made extending the problem. So that is sadly, it is about capitalism in that way.

everything does cost money. There's only so many resources to spend. So let's not be foolish about them. Let's not, I would love it if we could re

I think again, because of the BHA, lack of involvement, I think that everything that was done under this past legislative session was invalid and needs to be officially legally canceled and retracted because that's an expensive process but not nearly as expensive as committing down to a course of action that is unconstitutional. So that's another discussion for another time. But I do think that, like I said, that we're gonna see that come up.

once we hit the actual licensing, that we're actually in a course vaccine that was not authorized in the first place. And when you say licensing, like licensing of what? The licensing of practitioners and facilitators, the licensing of centers, the licensing of cultivators, the licensing of transporters, the licensing of all the infrastructure support that needs to be in place for an industry to spring up and emerge around psychedelics. So we're seeing that with mushrooms first.

I am so grateful that the universe has gifted me the ability and the experience of having been involved in the supply chain, all of that, and having built those businesses out along the way. I'm so grateful that I've been able to move through that and let them go and or hand them off to other people so I don't have to do everything. I can be the wise old Al now. It's a lot of work.

a good example, I think that where we went wrong is the labs, the licensed labs will not be allowed to test Russian products from anybody who is a licensed cultivator.

So the community harm reduction has been removed. So me, if I'm growing mushrooms, which I legally can do, I can't then go to one of those labs and have them tested. You can't go to a licensed facility. can go to an underground facility or you can go to community facility for that, which can advertise their services, which can't, those machines are not cheap. Gotcha. So, but they've made it so that it is again, rent seeking. This is only for approved. And I don't know why exactly why they would want to do that.

other than maybe the thought of, if you have a certificate of analysis, then people will want to buy these because they're known that they're toxin -free or this is the higher ratios of what they have. That data, as a citizen scientist, as someone who wants to move, you have the right to learn about these things that you grew and that you grew, were gifted or gathered. It's unlikely that fentanyl is in mushrooms.

But it is likely that there's going to be BaioSysin and NorbaioSysin in there. There'll be Silsin and Norsoilin. There'll be Aragonisin in there. And learning that those things are in there can be measured. You might not know what that means now, but you can have it in your notebook, in your journal, and it's your right to do what you wish with that data. And then you discover that your experience there, like I did when I was making microdoses, I figured out combinations that all of a sudden unlocked things.

that were, I'm like, great, thank goodness for Underground Labs helping me test these things. So. What do you think about the fact that, like, largely in this discussion, this is based on my own personal experience and how I view and, you know, the news that I see, but it seems like most of the time when.

any news outlet, anybody who's talking about mushrooms, they're specifically calling it psilocybin, and they're not actually calling it mushrooms. And to me, it seems like that's taking this thing that has all of these alkaloids, all of these different compounds in it, and it's boiling it down to this one thing, when it's not just that. And do you see that as a problem moving forward?

Do I see it as a problem moving forward? I see that language is reductive at best. see that, yeah, psilocybe cubensis is just one strain. It's a strain that there's many versions of that that we're allowed to use, but we're only allowed to use psilocybe cubensis if you're a licensed practitioner here.

And I can tell you as somebody who cultivates and facilitates with medicine, pairing things together is where the benefit is. And so if the client doesn't respond strongly to one, they'll respond to the other and that will unlock the first one. And so it's not the psilocybin that's the active tool, it's the psilocin.

And for those who don't know the formula, that's 4 -H -O -D -T is psilocin. So it is a DMT, the spirit molecule is in there. Different than 4 -A -C -O -D That's synthetic, that's psilocetin. That is the stuff that gets you feeling very off and can likely make you very disoriented and or nauseous and or lead you to be in a state that can really harm yourself.

I do not recommend that people consume for ACO DMT. And I do recommend strongly that companies that put that product in there label their packages correctly. that agencies that discover that in there go after it with criminal intentions for people who want to make a buck off their fellow man rather than help them heal themselves of the damage done by the man chasing the buck.

But the point of it is DMT is there. And so we talk about the power of ayahuasca. And that's just as present in the power of the mushroom because they're both DMT based experiences. And allowing that to go to those realms, all those quantum moments that take place when your spirit has gone traveling and your journey and your body's here and somebody's holding the space for you and protecting your physical body.

All of that needs to be honored, recognized, and allowed. And more importantly, celebrate it. I strongly recommend that people, if they're trying to figure out what to do, how to be part of this movement, go volunteer.

Go learn how to be a space holder. Go learn how to be a sitter. Go learn how to be a doula or death doula. Go spend some time interviewing people. Go be a witness. Go be a source of knowledge. Go be an authority in this moment, in ceremony. Go offer what you have to offer and do it in partnership with somebody who doesn't have those skills. Find somebody unlike yourself to partner with and learn from them as they learn from you together and see what you grow towards each other in that way.

That potential right there, that mycelial networking, those threads and fibers, that's how you build communities that are resilient and going to really last throughout whatever history brings us into and out of in this way. Those shimmering, gossamer networks that go from us to the stars.

Well, Eli, I think that we've reached kind of the end here. And I have so much to process. And I am so grateful for this opportunity to be able to sit with you before we officially go. Is there any...

shout outs that you would like to give or anything that you would like to promote from yourself or the listeners that might be consuming us? Sure. Thank you. So my practice and business is called Hole and True. And you can find us at https://bbe .holeandtrue .com.

The honeys are available online in the shop.

And so services that we offer, do offer, peperoni, ceremony preparation, Eli Talks Take Five, new lips, ceremony preparation. We offer integration services of helping make sense of whatever has happened. It doesn't have to be psychedelics. It just is how to learn and figure out what is happening right now. And then we also offer facilitation services in a religious tradition for the Healing Ground Church. If you're interested in mushrooms in a more community -based experience,

encourage you to reach out and join us at the Healing Ground Church every other Sunday from 1030 to 12 and then followed by Potluck. That's in Colorado. it's in the Denver area. That's healingground .org is where you can find that information. Yeah, and I encourage people to, as they're going about their daily life, as they rise and fall, as you open up your dream channel with Boba Nsana, dream bigger.

Give yourself room, dream bigger. This has been such a beautiful time with you and my heart is wide open right now. Once again, I'm very, very grateful to be able to do this and I appreciate you and your presence and just your aura. Thank you. Is one that is very fun to be in. So thank you for sharing with me. thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

Thank you again to Eli for coming on the podcast. Make sure that you are following us on social media at underscore Tripsitting underscore. And if you ever want to get in touch with me, shoot me a DM or send me an email at Tripsittingplug at gmail .com. That's all I got. See you next episode.